Drinks with Shrinks
Drinks with Shrinks
Can a Separation Be "Helpful?"
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Separation is often a misunderstood word. When people hear it, they often immediately think of divorce or the end of a relationship, but that’s not necessarily the case. Sometimes, separation can create much-needed space to slow down, reflect, and gain perspective on yourself and your relationship.
In this episode, Jessica and I discuss how intentional separation can provide an opportunity for reflection, contemplation, and emotional processing. We also explore how stepping away from unhealthy patterns can help you reconnect with your values, better understand what you truly want, and make more thoughtful decisions about what comes next. Separation doesn’t always have to mean an ending; sometimes, it can create the space needed for clarity, growth, and meaningful change.
All right. Welcome to Drinks with Shrinks. Welcome. Hi. We are your hosts, Jessica and Peter. Jessica, how are you? Hi.
SPEAKER_00Good to see you. Nice to see you. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. Yes. Yeah. Um, Jessica and I have been working together for we're going on eight years.
SPEAKER_00Is it really already? Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01I think so. Seven years. Seven years. We've been working together since seven years. Yeah. You you came on um in 2019, right before the pandemic. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you made me laugh during the interview because you said something about fried chicken or something. And then I just laughed and I was like, you're hired. And um I can't remember what the context was. I wish I remembered. Oh, it was like crispy. It's like crispy like chicken. I can't remember the crispy. Yes, I know. And I can't remember the context. I just remember laughing genuinely. For I was like, and I told my wife, I was like, Yeah, I think I'm gonna hire her. She made me laugh. So I was like, okay, go for it. I um I think you were describing maybe you were describing private practice. It's like it fries me like crispy chicken or something like that. And anyway, it was like a very good metaphor. But um, yeah. Well, today we're gonna be talking about something kind of serious. So we'll be talking about uh basically, yeah, we're gonna be addressing separation. And uh separation is a very real word, it doesn't always mean divorce. I know a lot of people think it means divorce. Uh, we should probably talk about that. And um yeah, I'm really excited about today because I think whenever people think about separation, they think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get a divorce, my life is over. And that's often not the case. In fact, John Gottman, who uh Jessica and I quote quite a bit, um, he's he talks quite a bit about uh, you know, how separation can actually save a marriage. And um, why don't we talk about that? What would you say is the difference? Is let's talk about like the differences between separation and divorce. How do you explain those differences? Like when a client's coming in and they're saying, okay, we're thinking of divorce, I usually slow them down. I usually say, Well, let's hold up, hold up. Why don't we take a month break? And um, while we do this month break, why don't we really process whether or not you really want to do that? Uh in fact, I don't even want to you to even mention that word again. I usually stop my clients short. Uh, it's like, can we let's let's hold back a little bit? And I usually talk to them about what separation means and what it looks like. Now, of course, there's a lot of different dynamics of that. If the person is separating because they want to um they're already in an affair, that's gonna be a lot trickier. Uh, I usually tell people if they can not connect with that affair partner for the next month, just to think about it. But how do you go about it? Let's talk, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, and I appreciate that distinction. And I think part of this is where I lean in a little bit more to discernment counseling, like those three paths that they talk about, where you know, there's a decision to stay together. There's a decision when we talk about divorce, you know, of course, there are legal ramifications with that as well, but um, it's really like we are making a decision that we are not coming back together, right? In a romantic marital way. And then separation is I view it kind of my word is space where we're making a conscious and consensual, hopefully consensual decision to step back. It's not that divorce is off the table, but we're making um an intentional decision to give you name the window of time, where we are all into this relationship, where we are really focusing on what we can do to make a relationship work. So that's kind of one version of it. Another version I might use with people is separation, having clear boundaries around what that time apart looks like. I don't know if that makes how how that how that lands with you, but just it's not that the relationship is over over, but we are taking time apart to reflect on ourselves while being honoring the relationship still. Um if it is a monogamous relationship, assuming that. Um how's that does that land with your definition or how would you define it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, separation is like really just kind of taking your time mess necessary um to see whether or not this marriage is really going to work. And um, or or if separation, yeah, especially I often say separation, it's it's I I put a lot of um you know, a lot of it uh on the emphasis, especially if they have like kids. Let's say, for example, they've got two or three kids and whatnot. I'm like, okay, could we I really want to slow down here? Um, you know, I I get it if it's if it's you know, it's one thing if um they're maybe like they're newly, even if they're newlyweds, I still take it a lot of consideration. But I mean, um, a lot of people don't necessarily know what it even looks like. They're living together and especially if they've been together for a very, very long time. Uh, they don't necessarily see any problems with, you know, um uh separating because hey, I could live without this person. And then, you know, the the shit hits the fan. Uh, and then they don't know, like their lives are not the same without that person. So it's just kind of like, you know, so I see separation. I put it as like a almost like a trial period. You have to, you have to put reality, I want you to live as if this is like as if you're you're divorced. Be um, you know, uh, and then after about a month, how how how did that go? Because I want that if they don't, if they don't do that, then they're going to be they're gonna be in for a ride. Because I mean, divorce is um final, obviously. And you want to be able to know whether or not like, yeah, you you're uh you can live with your with uh without that person in your life. I I mean, I don't know if I'm adding or any anything more to that, but I mean that's kind of the way I define it.
SPEAKER_00Do you feel like in that in that trial window? Because I I feel like therapists have different positions on this. Sometimes I might recommend to a couple, depending on their situation, you know, maybe a period where we before a separation decision is made, and they're maybe considering something like that. A trial period also of like going, let's go all in and see if that moves the needle, and and a trial period of time apart. So there's like a comparison. What are your thoughts on that process?
SPEAKER_01You mean like a trial period, oh, together and then apart? Yeah, kind of like I don't know. I usually think of separation like I want you all to really feel the pain of it, you know. I I want you all to like limit your texting. Um, I want you to act as if you're divorced, but you're not, you know. So I want you to make sure that you're not seeing anybody, you're not dating anybody, not right now, but only come together briefly through texts and then um meet together every week. Yeah, just every week for couples therapy and try not to, you know, talk that much. And they might say, Well, well, what if I do really want to talk? It's like, I know, but you're thinking of this. And I want you to really kind of sit with it because you need to sit with whether or not you want to um stay with your values here because something's being like, and plus you want to know even what your values are. I think most people, when they're thinking of divorce, they're so disconnected with their values. I mean, act acceptance, commitment therapy talks a lot about that's usually why there's so much fusion and also why there's so much avoidance and we get stuck um with our own self-concept, which means comparison and we're we're not in, we're we feel like we're not doing things in line with our own, or excuse me, we get very goal driven. And so I want you to just over the next month really know what those values are. And if you could start having a relationship that's based on workability, um, not you know, because a lot of relationships, I think they get so rigid, and you're wanting to become flexible once again. But to find that, you have to, you want to really kind of feel the pain a little bit. That's me. Um, you know, because I don't want them to keep doing it and playing. I I sometimes see this with couples, they'll play flirt, they'll like flirt with separation. And like he's in the basement, and then she's in the attic, like she's in, you know, her room, and they're seeing each other almost all the time. And then I'm like, wait, that's not a separation. Um, and like that's they're calling it that, but it's not. And then they're then they use divorce as like a threat. And then that does a lot of damage. And it's like, okay, but if we're gonna really talk about this, then let's talk about this. If you're not gonna talk about this, let's let's get our hands dirty and not talk about it. And let's work on the four, you know, the four horsemen and get let's get let's get dirty. Sometimes people use these words to kind of stay disconnected and connected at the same time, and they'll do that for like 10 years, which and yeah, you got to make a decision.
SPEAKER_00Make a decision, make a decision. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But no, I don't know. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00No, I was just gonna say really value that because I was when we were talking about, especially like in that example, like potentially 10 years, right? Think about also the harm that comes when the relationship is always feeling like it's on the chopping block, you know, just the instability that can create and also the value of those terms when we're just throwing them out there, it desensitizes on some level, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so no, I I I just really value that the clarity that you're talking about, which is if if we're truly talking about separation and we are doing a trial there, um, and that's the decision that's been reached, then we need to look at how are we practicing that and shifting those routines, how we're sharing in things, as if that were actually happening, right? But what it does is I think to your point, when we're apart from maybe some of the dynamics that feel insurmountable at the time, kind of like when you're flooded, if you will, it's one of those things that how do I feel when I'm apart from the relationship? What do I notice about myself and who I am apart from the relationship? Maybe also there's some perspective there, like when you were talking about values and those things that we're longing for. Maybe when we step away, maybe we also find I do miss this person. This is potentially repairable when you're not in it, right? Um, the perspective and clarity that can give.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When when do you start seeing separated? Like, what are some red flags? And when do you start maybe encourage? I don't ever try to encourage it. It's it's as much well. I encourage it in the sense like if they're saying we will get divorced, then I encourage it because I see it as a stepping stone. But what are some what are some flags maybe that you see that where you might recommend it? I'm just curious, and then I can I can answer that as well.
SPEAKER_00Um I think that some of the flags are, you know, Gottman, for example, talks a lot about the four horsemen criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling, but also something called negative sentiment override, right? Where our we're scanning more for negative um traits and/or negative sentiments about our partner or the relationship, override any positive ones to the point where we're potentially rewriting our history. And so if I think, you know, the four horsemen are rampant running around in that relationship, if in addition to we're really unable to recollect anything positive or any assign any positive attributes to our partner or marriage, I think sometimes like I think of it like a dirty window, right? When we're stepping away, does that space also allow for like that us to wipe away the dirt so we can get a clearer picture of our partner? Right. Um, so I think sometimes those are, especially contempt. I think that's one where those warning signs that negative sentiment is particularly high, but also contempt, the four horsemen are really rampant. It doesn't mean just because those things are there, the relationship is doomed and we need to separate. I think there's a certain degree of that that takes place, and when also commitment, when commitment is not something that we feel, if if if we're in a monogamous marriage and we are feeling that we no longer cherish this relationship, are willing to continue to invest in it, are having thoughts about others, right? Where we may act on those thoughts, and there really isn't an ability to say, no, I am willing, like a willingness to work on the relationship. Those are all kind of warning factors to me that I look for. You can be questioning things, but is there a willingness to want to work toward repair resolution? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, yeah. Well, definitely a lot of contempt. Um you know, maybe we should explain. A lot of people think they know what contempt is. A lot of people say, well, my husband scowls at me sometimes, or my wife always criticizes me. And that's not contempt. I mean, I I I contempt is um disgust. It's a very powerful emotion. It's looking not just looking, scowling, but it's like looking, yeah, yeah. It's like looking down on you as if you're a smaller person. And that's a oh man, that's that's you know, I mean, Gaudman proved that like through a lot of his studies that when you when disgust takes over, your immune system starts to compromise, which actually makes sense. You know, I mean, you your immune system does compromise actually when you're around bad food or whatnot. Like, you know, it's like your fear because your immune system is always on high alert. And if that goes, if that if that if it feels that way for over, you know, for years, that does a lot of damage to the heart because you're you're producing a lot of uh it's not just it's more than just anger, it's transcending anger to the point where um I see you as a germ. Uh and the only the only approach to uh when contempt gets so bad in the relationship, the cure for that is what building a culture of appreciation. So what separation is hopefully doing is that you start to appreciate that partner again. And that's why I don't like the flirting, like, oh, we're gonna go back and forth and back and forth, and you know, he lives upstairs, I live downstairs. Okay, look, y'all have to make an opinion, you know, if you want to get get dirty, get dirty. But we can't just like throw these words around. Um, how can you appreciate your partner while living with them? And if you could do that, let's let's get messy and I want you all to stop using those words. But if you're going to use that word and you're onto that point, can you build that culture of appreciation once again for your partner? And I've seen this with with couples, maybe there's been an affair, um, and they're so determined, I really need to make sure that I I divorce my my my husband or my wife, and you know, and then they separate for about a month, maybe even two months, and they don't talk a lot. And then they start to realize, okay, my my partner's actually done a lot of really good work. I really miss them. Um wow, I've I've really gotten to the point where I I have really uh, you know, um, I need to do some work myself. I can't just blame them that they're the source of all my problems. I'm not perfect either. And they're willing to work and they want to be with me. And I don't know if I could live without this person and I start appreciating this person once again, and maybe I start dating them again. That's a good, that's like that's an example of like a beautiful story of how separation can bring back life. Yeah, but that I so I always kind of present, I mean, I don't know if this is answering a question or not, but I always present it not as a hopeless situation, but as a as a think of it as a as a risky situation that could possibly produce a resurrection or a death. Um I love how you worded that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which sounds very biblical, but that's okay, like Eastern. Well, that story has been around for thousands of years, too.
SPEAKER_00So stand to the test of time. But yeah, but to that point though, it is because you know, sometimes too, it's it's recognizing there also might have been things in the dynamic between us that weren't serving us, right? And so when you talk about that idea of resurrection, it is. It's also the opportunity to recognize maybe in some ways, if we say like marriage 1.0 wasn't it is maybe the death of that, but also the building and the opportunity to build marriage 2.0, holding on to those things that we truly cherish and value while also learning new ways because we're not stuck in a vacuum, we evolve over time, right? How do we learn to grow again together and evolve and make shifts in our marriage where we both feel honored? And so I think something really beautiful can happen, but it's also with that emotional intensity coming down and returning to some of those fundamental pillars of our friendship, which is that fondness and admiration, that ability to appreciate the other person and scan for the things that you value about them. There's a reason why you chose them, right? And reconnecting to those things. And sometimes it's in that time apart that you miss it, that thing that they would just do. And I wish I could talk to them about this. And sometimes that can get reignited. You can feel that. And and I think also to your point about um, you know, being able where the blame isn't solely on my partner, but being able to describe your own feelings and your own needs. And sometimes when you're not in the situation and you have that room, maybe it's an opportunity to reconnect to those things so you can say them in a more productive way. Um, in a way that would give your partner the opportunity to work with you. You know. Um, sorry, I went on a tangent.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I'm well, well, we both do. Um that's why we're that's why we're working together. No, I don't like if I got upset about that, I would be a hypocrite. Uh no, no, I don't think it was a tangent. That was great. That was that was um when would you recommend? Yeah, maybe it leads to this next question. What so when what when have you seen? And I guess I should I should back up because we as marriage therapists, we should probably explain to our audience, like we don't really recommend stuff as much as we try to recommend what's in what's in according to your values. Like I often reflect back. I was just meeting with a client earlier this morning, and I noticed that I was giving advice, and then I stopped myself and I said, actually, just to let you know, I'm not giving advice, I'm telling you what you just told me. And I and she smiled and she appreciated that because I'm like, I'm not, I'm just telling you what you said to said to me 15 minutes ago. And you know, so that's what I'm giving you back. So um uh when when do you start seeing your clients veer into oh gosh, they separate and then they do realize, yeah, I need a divorce. Like what what are maybe we could talk about some of those observations. I mean, I don't mind going first on that too. I mean um I mean I I I guess yeah, I I uh I I I often see it when they they're at peace and they've they have not been with that person for over a month or two months, and they there's no there's no there's you don't sense that disgust anymore, which is really good. Um and they've come back and they've really, really thought about it. If they're religious, prayed about it. Yeah. Um they've re they've really reconnected with their values and they've realized that their own values have been so compromised. Um they don't want to live like this anymore. They have no there's not a sense of there's not a sense of like this anger or hatred toward the partner anymore, which I really like. It's just more like I wish them the best, but yeah, I think I need to move on. Like I should say that's that's probably where I see it as the in the healthiest place. Obviously, I don't ever encourage divorce. I I'm sad when my clients divorce. I'm I I this is where I kind of disagree with some marriage therapist. I was just talking to somebody the other day, and he was like, Well, my my my goal for this couple is to eventually get to the point where they just find themselves. And I'm like, and he I was like, I'm really pro them. And he kind of pushed back. He's like, Well, I'm not really pro the couple, I just want them to find their voice. And I I had to push back on that. And I'm like, Well, no, I'm I'm really pro them. I really hope they make it here. So, I mean, I I'm always sad when a couple divorces, but if that person gets to that point where they are there and they just can't move forward, then I I I I I feel like I could really process in a very healthy way with them. Um, but if they're at a place where they're just so still living with a lot of contempt. I I kind of dig a little deeper. I often say, well, okay, I I still don't know if divorce is right or not. Can we can we explore that a little bit? I mean, you know, could we is it is yeah, that's kind of my approach. I'm again I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hold them back if they still feel like they need to go through it, but I I try to if there's still this energy that's still very uh rigid against the other person, um, I often kind of well, could we could we maybe take a little bit more time? Anyway, that's that's kind of how I process. How you how you do it.
SPEAKER_00No, I I I I love that point. And I think so going back a little bit to go forward, but I think you know, some again of those signs are when there's also that loss of empathy, that lot like that more um disengagement, right? Whether it be emotional or otherwise. And I think times when I see a separation might lead for them to make a decision to divorce, is times when that they might be coming back from that and they might say, you know what? In this time apart, I feel more uh a deeper sense of engagement, not only with myself, but I feel more of my needs and who I am as an individual. I feel so much more of myself is sometimes like something I hear, in which case, you know, and sometimes in those situations, um I'm seeing them finally make a decision to divorce. The other thing too is if that empathy can't be restored. So sometimes um if in that time there's still, again, those negative sentiments overriding. I I love the the outcome where they can both amicably separate, but there are times when it's also that loss of I feel like empathy, like of I don't, I don't want to do this. Like there's there's a hard time taking that accountability, and also when there's irreconcilable differences, right? Where they just feel fun coming back to those values, they feel the what they need for their values, their beliefs, um, their needs to be honored is just unequivocally um incompatible with what their partner's position might be. And that, and in those cases, it's sometimes I can still have a love for you as someone I shared a life with, someone that um I do have a deep sense of friendship with. I though cannot move forward in an authentic way for myself if these needs aren't met. Um, so that's also sometimes when I feel like I see the decision of a couple when like they've tried certain roads and even they might have had that separation, trial separation, but that those needs they just can't align. And so they make a decision to say, look, like again, meaning no ill will here, and they try to do it as cordially as possible, but they do make a decision to go their separate ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I do wonder, not to, you know, and I could I could throw this throw throw a bone here. I mean, a little bit. I mean, I I I wonder if the biggest critique of divorce culture is because you had said, like, you know, not finding my own values. There's a lot of sub a lot of people might object to that a little bit, saying, well, maybe that's the problem. There's too much subjectivity. Um, you know, I just read something that I think it's like practicing Catholics and Muslims and Jews. I think the divorce rate is like 14%. Is it? And yeah, whereas the divorce rate for I think atheists 38 and then Protestants, and we're always number one, aren't we? I'm kidding. Like I think it's like 47. Yeah, Protestants, like 47, and then non-committal Protestants is like 49. Um, Protestantism and atheism kind of has an element of like, you know, I mean, you think of like, well, it's my Bible and my verse, whereas like when you think of Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, especially Catholic, it's more like, no, it's, I mean, I know Catholics see marriage as a as a sacrament, which is really, really powerful. It's like this is yeah. How do you how do you adopt? I guess my question is, because I try to adopt the language of my clients a little bit too. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, because yeah, I think I I kind of toy, I I'm um, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a Christian, I don't mind admitting that. And like I I have clients who are they'll often bring faith in the element of that, and they'll often how do you play, how do you play with that? I mean, I I even though I am, I don't I have a lot of I have a lot of clients who aren't, and I I never push that. I I I always go that's what I love about ACT, because Act, I think values is something higher than us. Yeah. Um, it's that archetype that I feel like that Young was talking about without feeling like you're pushing your own beliefs at the same time. Values, I think, is something that's really beautifully said and written about because it's more than just finding my peace. It's it's maybe my value is justice. My maybe like if like if it like an affair, this is an example, like if his if her value is forgiveness, grace, and kindness, and that's that's like the root of who she is. She might say, like, no, I can't, I can't, I can't divorce. Whereas this person, if it's like if there is an affair and and their value, his her value is um justice, um, truth, and um loyalty or loyalty, right? They might get to the point and they're like, no, no. Like, so it's that's that's really that's an interesting, and that I think that's what I love about ACT, because both are both kind of transcend us, and both are actually in religious text, really, which is kind of beautiful. Loyalty, justice, and forgiveness and love. So it's like that's the dialectic of even religious text. So I get I know that's a lot there, but like how do you how do you play with that? Like without getting too subjective, but also, you know, yeah, you made this promise, you made this oath, and marriage is more than just dating. It's like at least that's the view I have. How do you how do you toy with all that? Because these are more like philosophical questions, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00And I think so, definitely using the client's words and really trying to paraphrase back and repeat back what I'm hearing them say to make sure I'm on the same page. But I think also looking at, um, and there are different ways I might do that, but I think also looking at in any given situation, trying to ask them really open-ended questions that dig deeper into what are those underlying tenets there? Is there some type of rule by which I make my decisions or that guides my actions that feels like it's underlying whatever that particular issue is? Like, what is it that makes that so important? What is it, if especially too? I I am a big proponent of emotions or conduits of needs. And so, in a situation that might be more emotionally intense, it our emotions are trying to tell us or bring our attention to something that is important. And sometimes that can be even a segue into a deeper value conversation. You know, what are your underlying dreams there? You know, like there's a need here. Where does that need come from? Like, tell me the story about that. And so I think just digging in and trying to get them to kind of look at what are those guiding symbols, beliefs, tenets that are really important and how are they playing out or a part of this particular situation or dynamic? And what does that say or mean for me? Because it's not up to me to decide is your value being met here or not. Only you know the answer to that, right? But I want to help you get connected to whatever that thing is for you.
SPEAKER_01Nice, yeah. That's that's good. I like that. Yeah, that's that's really and I think that's what I love about ACT so much because it does push the transcendent without being pushy. And it is it is there's an element of subjectivity to it, and there's not. It's a little bit of dbt. It's like it is kind of your values are gonna be different, but like I said, this person over here, if it's honor, justice, and truth, again, those are those are archetypes that have been around for thousands of years, whereas this person's maybe this is and that maybe after, but they want to do what's workable in line with it. And usually people, I think uh another thing I love about ACT too is like there there is so much rigidity in ourselves and maybe in our marriage because we're not in line with our values anymore. We're doing everything that they want to do. And it's like, no, this may and maybe that's where the separation could be actually really healthy, because if you could know what that is and then stop nitpicking because you're always you're you're you're too concerned about them, them and not yourself in a good way, in a healthy way. And then you're either people pleasing or getting too rigid about yourself, you can get centered again. And then which what's beautiful about that is like hopefully when you come back, you could be a lot more flexible. I mean, Gottman talks a lot about knowing your core need first and foremost and compromise. And then everything else is just like, whatever. You know, I don't care. And I usually know when a client, like a couple is like when they're nitpicky, you know, it's like you know, and they're like, No, you didn't. I'm like, Well, what's your core need? And they're like, What do you mean? They don't know.
SPEAKER_00It's such a I get that same response. All the time.
SPEAKER_01So I remember, I remember, um, yeah, that's like that's very psychological, like about that. Like, there's there's something that's I know I remember I was um when I used to do like circuit preaching at a church, and there was this one church and they had divided, and guess what they divided over? They split. It was and it was like a 600-member church, which up here is like huge, down there it's whatever, but divided because of the paint, the paint in the basement. Really? That was it. There they but they had no core vision. It was like love everybody. Well, that's not a core vision. And it was like, and you when you talk to both groups of people, which I did, like this group really did think white was better, and they would even bring in like verses. I'm like, what are you talking about? And then this person in this group over here who thought beige was better, they would even like, but they didn't, they didn't, they didn't know what their core need was, and so they would nitpick. It's like these teeny little dick, you know, fucking everything on the surface. 100%. It's like, well, he doesn't do the dishes at six o'clock like I asked him to. Okay, well, what's your core need? What do you mean? Like, what is it? Yeah, I want you to be connected with that. So it's like, slow down. Hopefully, when you come back, that's that's the flexibility that you're often looking for. Um and that's that's again, yeah. I'm it's I'm glad we're talking about this because I I like that we're kind of giving a positive, not a positive spin, but it's like it's not a death sentence. It could be a wonderful opportunity to you for you to really find what's most important so you can make this marriage work. Um, or what like what you said, find what's important most important so that you you can move on. Um it's kind of a win-win in that way. Um wow, no, I like that. Yeah, because I think okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Also for in a situation where, and I know it might require a little bit more delicacy and and mindfulness and how it's being presented, but even when there's a situation where kids are involved and there's this trial, what it also does is helps hopefully to create an environment that's less potentially hostile, right, or tense, and that has a positive impact on kids and their development as well. And so I think there's a positive there because sometimes I hear, but the kids, but the kids, and my answer to that is research shows you know, staying together for the kids, so to speak, right? In a situation where there is hostility or really intense interactions, and kids are exposed to that on a regular basis. That is not good for that, does not always impact them well. So, in cases where we're not getting divorced, but we're trying to create some space, it's also diffusing that tension and creating stability and maybe even some calm in the household. So I think there's an opportunity there as a family too. Um, and to still process those things. Like I said, there's a lot there that I'm now kind of chipping away at, but a lot more discussion there. But I think also not to associate making a decision to separate and take may have a trial separation be seen as a negative for a family unit either. It can actually maybe have some positive impacts there too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I try to be balanced with that because there's also tons of research that says kids are man, there's a lot of research that also says that kids they're gonna be affected by that with a divorce for the rest of their lives. Um, you know, yeah, there's there's a lot, like especially boys not seeing their dads for, you know, but once a month, and or girls do, you know, and then yeah, yeah. And so the research is, yeah, it's it's interesting because the I think Yeah, when I I remember I remember doing a doing a course once, and they talked a lot about the research out there on on like the effects of what divorce does to and we often this marriage surface, we I find myself like you know, not like forgetting to bring that up, but that's just as important for my clients to hear just as much. Like, you know, just that and that's why you need a lot of discernment counseling. I really, really want you guys to make sure that you're doing like you're really, really thinking about this because your kids won't be the same. That's where I disagree with like a lot of marriage counselors sometimes are like, oh no, they'll be. I'm like, no, no, they'll be affected.
SPEAKER_00It has an impact. No, a hundred. And I hope I wasn't saying it.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I I wasn't no, it's this is a good balance because yeah, it's hard, it's hard to tell. Like, is it you know, I would like to know. I would love to see, and maybe, maybe send me something because I would or if anybody's listening, send us some stuff that please, yes, um, yeah, like longitudinal studies that will compare um the mental effects of children on divorce, or if they're in in marriages where there's a lot of yelling, not abuse. Right, like you know, I mean, I actually I I don't mind saying I I grew up in a very chaotic home, and I'm I'm really glad my parents didn't divorce. That's where I'm like, I'm actually glad. I I'm glad my dad stayed in there and he he's awesome, you know. And I, you know, yeah. I I would love our audience, and but you too, like what what are the what are the ramp what are the longitudinal studies about this versus this? I I would love to know what that is. Yeah. Now that doesn't necessarily go back on act though. I think we still go back to values. Again, I I yeah, that's tricky. It really is.
SPEAKER_00It really is. And and I and I think, you know, and I found where I where I was referencing it from. It was in um, but again, there's so much information out there, and I do think it has, to your point, an impact. I think they were talking about in situations where there it's also greater marital hostility and chronically elevated levels of stress. Um so it's a little bit of a different scenario there. Um, but they were they just followed up with the there was a little bit of a lingerie. I can't say that word for the life of me today. But when they followed up with uh children through the age of 15, that's where they found that those children, um, compared to others of their age were had had examples of like truancy depression, peer rejection, um, behavioral issues, school achievement, and even school failure. But again, that's not to say, like to your point, there's not impacts of also what happens when a when a family unit is separating. I think too, it comes into how we do that, which is why that trial separation and talking to a couples therapist along the way. I think sometimes people say, okay, our relationship, we're getting separated. We don't need to engage in couples therapy. And I think that's where I would encourage people to have those conversations because if we are ultimately going to be making a decision to divorce at the end of that separation, which could happen, I think it's the how that also my hope would be could help mitigate. Not that there's not going to be an impact, there will be, but I think how we go through that transition also as a family unit, not just as a couple, is really, really, really, really important. Um, and what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so good. I love that. Yeah, I always like, I always like to bring fairness here because I think, yeah, thank you for bringing up those studies too. I like to just, you know, it's just like, okay, here's the research. This is it could do a lot, and this is could do a lot. I think there's just there's such a today. I and I wanted to push back too because it's like there, I hear way too many marriage therapists like push, find your voice, find your, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like slow down here. Like you're you gotta really bring in the other research here too. It's like, you know, and um I think sometimes marriage therapists and therapists in general, they're they're hesitant to bring out research that's kind of offensive, you know. I'm gonna be politically incorrect. There's a lot of research that says, you know, like, you know, if you if if a parent um can uh not, yeah, what is it? Like at least at the most part, like try to be with your children the first few years, which is better for the kids. A lot of people say, How dare you? Now you're against women working. I'm like, no, but the research does say that. Like, I'm not trying to be, you know, it's uh it has nothing to do with like hurting your feelings and psychology. I always say this with my my students, it can be offensive sometimes. It really can. Like a yeah, divorce can really affect a child, um, 100%. Even even if like and I want you guys to really think about that. And I've seen it, I've also seen divorces where it hasn't. I mean, I will admit, like, I've I've met with kids and they're I will sometimes bring up the like the fact that his parents are divorced or her parents, and they're like, Oh, yeah, well, thanks, Peter, for bringing that up. I wasn't even thinking about that, and I haven't for like four years, but I appreciate that. I'm like, okay. So I mean, yeah, it's such a balance on what to what to say. But um, no, thanks for that. This is a good discussion. Jessica, thank you. Thank you for yeah, thanks for coming on. Well, um, I have I have a hard two, and Jessica, I think, does too. Uh, I said a lot of twos there. Uh, we're not drinking, I am I'm literally only drinking water.
SPEAKER_00Uh so but I'm being a little naughty today. I'm having um, usually I try to stay away from soda, but I am totally going through a ginger ale phase. So I'm oh sweet deal.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's good for the ginger, it's good for you. But thanks everybody for listening. Please leave any comments and uh we love your reviews. Yes, please, please share, share us on X so that um Elon can then like our comment content and then we can get millions of subscribers. I'm kidding. Because that's what we're going for, right? Right. All right, I'm just joking. No, but thanks everybody for listening. All right, thank you.